Having debated the concept of Trinity at length with Christians and trying yery much to understand it by logic, I have come to the following conclusions.
1) There is a Trinity in Islam in the form of the Gods message.The Quran is the word of God,the Spirit, and Muhammad.The message is from three entities. The Trinity here is a method rather than a Godhead. It also fulfills the prediction by Jesus in the Gospel John 14:16, 16:7 and 16:13 that there would be another human and spirit with Gods message.These Gospel verses also debunks the concept of the second coming of Jesus himself
Details of the Gospel verses that predicted the coming of the Prophet Muhammad is as follows :-
1.1) John 14:16 "And i will pray the Father,and He will give you another "Comforter",that he may abide with you forever."
1.2) John 16:7 "Nevertheles I tell you the truth.it is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away,the Comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart. I will send him unto you.
1.2.1) John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
1.2.2)John 16:9
of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
1.2.3) John 16:10
of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
(Note:the phrase "you see me no more" is proof that there is no Second coming of Christ)
1.2.4) John16:11
of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
1.2.5) John 16:12
I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
1.2.6) John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
(Note:Jesus refers He to "The Comforter" who is also the Spirit of Truth or that he receives the truth from God via the Spirit of Truth.)
Other evidence of prediction of prophet Muhammad from the Old Testamentare as follows:-
3) Deuteronomy 18:18-19
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among thy brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
(The phrase "from among thy brethren" means from the Ishmael tribe which prophet Muhammad belongs too.)
4)Deuteronomy 33:2 (King James Version)
And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
(Mount Paran is in Arabia the place where prophet Muhammad came from)
2)The Christian Trinity is an illogical and misunderstood explanation of the process of the Gods message. God,the Holy Spirit and Jesus spoke in unison or as one.The trinity is in the message and miracles of God. Jesus never meant to say that he and the Holy Spirit was God.It was the process of receiving Gods message. he was saying that God spoke through the holy spirit,and himself.So that means the massage and miracles by three identities,Jesus,the Holy spirit and God are one and the same.
Other verses in the Bible confirm that it is by the Father that Jesus can work his miracles and talk about truth.It means that God worked through the Holy Spirit and Jesus himself.Other verses that say Jesus was tempted by the Satan is proof that Jesus was not God and neither was he the Holy Spirit, as God and Holy spirit cannot be tempted. Temptation is only for people with flesh and bones.Verses that say that Jesus was crucified on the cross is also proof that Jesus was human and not God.
The allegory is that the ray and heat of the sun ia a part of the sun but it cannot exist without the sun, as such the ray and the heat is not the sun and not equal to the sun.
Here we can say the Holy Spirit and Jesus is from God but we cannot say that they are God as they would be dead without the life and power given to them by God.
This is how the true logical concept of One God must be understood.
Therefore, Trinity is in the message and the miracles that God lend to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.It means Jesus' miracles and message is the same as the Holy Spirits',and Gods' message and miracles.It is the process rather than the Godhead. God is still one. Jesus and the Holy spirit cannot function without God as such they are creations of God.
If there is any misunderstood aspect of these explanations, please make your comments here and I would gladly respond.
Salam/peace.
19 comments:
Salam incik pak_yeh,
Fuh hangat perdebatan anda dgn brother2 Kristian,
All revelation had transmitted to all Prophet like Torah, Bible etc include al-Quran, teaching are same thing "Islam". Torah have a secret of Godness had transmitted to Prophet Moses. Prophet Jesus explainted a secret of Godness openly, implication his "umat" worship him as sons of God in Trinity concept. Jesus explained with doctrine "one existance" (wahdatul wujud), but his "umat" guess it are reality. Prophet Muhammad explainted secret of Godness openly, but his hide it with aligory.
pak_yeh sudi2lah jenguk2 blog sy, ada artikel baru,
http://doktrinisasi.blogspot.com
P/S: Sorry if false gramatically, my Inglish is broken...
Pak Yeh,
The more I explain, the more confuse you get. You seem to equat the Holy Spirit , the comforter as your prophet Muhammad.
Sorry lah, Jesus' coming was foretold long before His time. Muhamad was never mentioned at all but you just are trying to link up verses in the Old Testament/Torah to the coming of your prophet.
It is pointless to go on as not only will you not understand, you will keep on trying to justify your prophet as the last prophet which you would like to say is said in the Bible.
This is a discussion in futility.
Salam
jc
Dear jc.
You cant blame me.I am really looking for the truth.But the Bibble is so full of contradictions and mistranslation.Even names are translated.Whats the reason for changing the names ??? Its either stupidity or its intended to confuse and hide the real truth. And to top it all there is no Gospel in Aramic.
Hey jc ,why change the Aramic name of the Comforter/Helper???
You want to hide or falsify something isn't it ???
Your priest have done a dirty trick on you. Too bad you are refusing to use your brains.
People who don't use their brains are like cows lead by their noses.Thats what the priest want...to be able to lead others by their noses.
For proof that Jesus is not God, read John 14:20,John 5:30,John 10:29, Mathiew 12:28, Luke 11:20
Please use logic and your mind.Without using it Satan can easily cheat you.
so great..the con of priest...
PakYeh...
Keep Fighting!!!
salam sejahtera semua
pakyeh,
i totally understand your mission in finding and spreading the truth. sometimes, people do not want to know the truth, or the truth has been kept away from them for so long that they will not want to change they way they were taught.
you have to understand that we are talking about faith gere, and faith is a big thing. its not easy at all to change faith. look at me for example, i have read the quran since i was 5.nobody ever taught me the meanings of what i was reading but i still have faith, it was the way i was brought up.
i remember a priest convert in the US who tried to get a muslim to convert to christianity but he from the first minute when there was 4 versions of the bible there and there is only one quran. fully in its original language.no denying that.
if you check all the three major books(and the numerous bible versions edited by caucasians) the message is:
BE GOOD TO OTHERS....
Hey jc ,why change the Aramic name of the Comforter/Helper???
====
Pak Yeh,
You have the Aramic Bible ?.
-----
Please use logic and your mind.Without using it Satan can easily cheat you.
==
My logic tells me that whoever appears to your Prophet did not identify himself as Gabriel, it took a Christian woman to suggest that it is Gabriel.
No, I do not share your believe. No, thank you.
Salam,
jc
Pak YEh, read moussa's testimony.
The Heart of the Matter
“I knew that the main bone of contention, the heart of the matter, was Jesus. Christians say that he is the Son of God while Muslims say that God did not father any child and that this is not possible. Could God have had a wife in order to have a child? This is blasphemy.”
Because of this controversy, Moussa decided to continue his research on the person of Jesus: “Koran commentators agree that ‘holy’ means ‘without sin.’ In the 114 suras, I discovered that five titles are attributed to Jesus. These titles are different from those applied to others and are, in fact, greater than the titles of all the others. He is called (1) the Messiah, and (2) the Son of Mary, because nobody knew him to have a human father. Mohammed is called the ‘son of Abdullah,’ but Jesus is called (3) the Apostle of God, (4) the Spirit of God and (5) the Word of God, one of those close to God, who was honored on this earth and beyond.
“In the 114 suras of the Koran, no sin is attributed to Jesus. Adam’s sin can be found in verse 36 [in some translations] of the second sura; the sin of Moses in Sura 28, and Jonah’s sin is mentioned in Sura 37. In Sura 40, [verse 55 according to some translations] Mohammed is commanded ‘to ask protection and forgiveness for your fault.’
“I said to myself, ‘Even my beloved Mohammed sinned! So how is it that Jesus never sinned? Why is He above all the other prophets?’”
At first Moussa was indignant and jealous for his faith, but he could not help but respect Jesus. He marveled that Jesus had actually lived on this earth for 33 years, and yet there is no record of any of his sins!
During this time some Christians approached Moussa. They claimed that Jesus was crucified and that their sins had been forgiven as a result of His sacrifice.
“Remember that I was seeking for an assurance of salvation, so I thought their message was too good to be true. I wanted to be sure about it. I opened the Koran to the fourth Sura entitled Women: ‘ They say we killed the Messiah, the Son of Mary. He was not killed, he was not crucified. Another person who resembled him was killed in his stead. God raised a living Jesus into the sky.’ (Verse 156 or 157 according to some translations)”
Now Moussa was relieved to find a verse that contradicted the Christians. The following day, “I opened my Koran to verse 48 of the third sura (or verse 55, according to some translations). God said: ‘Oh Jesus, I will make you taste death. I will raise you unto me, and I will deliver you from the unbelievers and those who follow you will be above those who do not believe in you until the day of resurrection. You will return to me. I will judge your differences.’
“That verse knocked me out,” Moussa recalled emphatically. “It had the effect of a sledge hammer on me. In fact, two elements of that verse conflict with the Cross-denying verse 156/157 of the fourth sura.
“The Koran asserts in the third sura verse 48 (or 55 according to some translations), ‘God said to Jesus: I will make you taste death, I will raise you unto me.’
“When I pondered that statement, ‘I will make you taste death,’ I said to myself, ‘THIS RESEMBLES THE CRUCIFIXION!’ And the words, ‘I will raise you unto me’ reminded me of THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD AND JESUS’ ASCENSION TO HEAVEN TO SIT AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD!
“And finally, I was astonished that the Koran says that those who follow Jesus Christ are ‘ABOVE THOSE who do not follow him until the day of resurrection.’ The time period specified is not for 10 years or 40 years or 500 years, but until the day of resurrection! And since that day has not arrived, was I to accept that Christians were above me? I was really not ready to accept this revolutionary message that I had found recorded so plainly in my own Koran!”
During this time, other questions bombarded Moussa’s mind, especially concerning the fourth sura where the crucifixion is denied.
“I continued my research and read the 19th Sura up to verse 33/ 34. Jesus Christ, as a small child in his crib, said this: ‘Peace be with me on the day of my birth, on my place of death and on my place of resurrection.’
We accept the fact that peace dwelled with him for the day of his birth to the day of his resurrection, but not on the day he died because we do not want to accept his death. However, there cannot be resurrection without death. This verse indirectly implies that Jesus Christ was killed and then boldly proclaims He was raised from the dead. I was convinced. After six months of investigation, I realized that the Koran confirms the Bible and that Jesus Christ is above other prophets. He is the Messiah, the Apostle of God, Mary’s son, the Spirit of God, the Word of God. I was furthermore convinced that He was crucified.”
After all these revelations, Moussa did not know what to do. He was truly immersed in a quandary. To distract his mind, he tried to party in the evenings, but his debauched lifestyle was no longer exciting. He could not eat. He was morose because he knew he was a sinner, and he knew he was deserving of Hell.
Therefore, one evening he had the presence of mind to conclude, ”If these trials I am going through are of God, then he should prove it to me physically. He should show me what to do.”
That evening, he spoke to God in Jula, his native language, and not in Arabic.
“I tried to reason with him like this: ‘My father is an imam,’ I said. ‘When I am with him, I lead the prayers. All my uncles are imams. So I am the descendant of an imam. For that reason, I cannot abandon my religion. I must honor my parents and family. I did not know that Jesus said to His followers that we must love Him more than our families.’
“I turned off the light, but all of a sudden another light appeared in my room! Someone was there. Initially, I was scared but afterwards His presence did not frighten me any longer. The Being approached me and placed His hand on my right shoulder. I remember it as though it happened only yesterday. He spoke to me, saying that all I needed to know had already been revealed to me, and therefore it was my personal decision to believe or not to believe. After this, everything became dark again. I could not sleep the whole night, as I was overwhelmed by the vision and by the choice before me, which He was allowing me to decide by my own free will.
“I spent four sleepless nights because I was resisting sleep, but on the fifth day, I could no longer resist. I was overcome by a deep sleep. During the deep sleep, I had a dream. I saw a tall man who had blinding bright eyes like those on car headlights. He tried to dazzle me with this blinding light. I was very much afraid, but suddenly my fear gave way to courage. I demanded to know his name but he would not tell me. Instead he began to recite the Islamic creed. But then he retreated and began to disappear.
“I spent four sleepless nights because I was resisting sleep, but on the fifth day, I could no longer resist. I was overcome by a deep sleep. During the deep sleep, I had a dream. I saw a tall man who had blinding bright eyes like those on car headlights. He tried to dazzle me with this blinding light. I was very much afraid, but suddenly my fear gave way to courage. I demanded to know his name but he would not tell me. Instead he began to recite the Islamic creed. But then he retreated and began to disappear.
“I woke up with a startle and realized at that precise moment something in me was stronger than what was in him. I had the impression that there was a change in my life. I concluded that there is no clear-cut promise of salvation in the Koran, but that the Koran clearly declares that the Torah and the Gospel are books from God. I also realized that Jesus is a Prophet above all prophets, that He is sinless and that He was crucified and raised up again. I had asked God to give me some physical sign. There was the vision, and now this spirit being in my dream was fleeing.”
Moussa decided to make a commitment to Jesus Christ. His prayer was so sincere that for the first time he knew that he had really talked with God. He confessed his sins. Suddenly, he closed his eyes and, as in a film, “I saw passing before my eyes all the sins I had ever committed in night clubs, my indecent sins, the sins of invoking spirits for money and so on. This vision lasted at least ten minutes, during which time many of my sins passed before my eyes. But I also knew that Jesus Christ had entered my life and that it was He who had given me forgiveness of all those sins and an indescribable joy.”
Jesus Christ proved that He alone had the power to deliver Moussa from life-controlling sins.
“I thank God for giving me the strength to say ‘YES’ to the truth proclaimed by the Bible. Now I want to ask my dear Muslim friends, ‘What are you going to do with Jesus? Will you go to the side of the One who is the Truth, Jesus Christ, who assures you of salvation now and in the hereafter?’ Do not say, ‘Because my father is Muslim, I am also a Muslim.’ God has no grandchildren. He only has sons. Ask yourself whether you are saved. If you die today, where will you spend eternity? That is the question you must answer. You will find uncertainties in the Koran, whereas theBible, which is confirmed by the Koran, shows you the path above all others, the only path. The Bible tells you plainly that Jesus is the Door to God. The important thing is for your sins to be forgiven, and the only way for that to happen is through the cleansing of the Blood of the Savior, Jesus. He forgives all your sins, even those you have committed in childhood.
“Especially I say to my Muslim friends, if you are experiencing dreams or visions about Jesus, if you are seeing a Man in White, be assured that He is trying to communicate information of the greatest importance concerning your free salvation and acceptance by God through the Blood of Jesus. Please do not be alarmed, but pray and ask for more revelation. Jesus always says, ‘Come! Follow me.’ ”
Make your own conclusion.
Dear drreza.
I agree with you.The core value of every religion is doing good.
Yet the Quran tells us to tell the Christians where they are wrong. You mus also understand that I am debating and choosing the truth as Allah wants it ..AlQuran 39:18 "Listen to all views,choose the best.These are the guided,the intelligent."
It is Allah who make people Muslims not me. But there must be a debate for the truth. Thre must also be an effort to spread Islam.That is the way of the prophet Muhammad and all Muslims.
Dear Anonymous jc,
You better surender lah. There is no Aramic Bible.Only Roman/Latin Bibles are available. How is truth transmitted if truth is without its original words in Aramic.
However with or without the original name of the Comforter. The versesJohn 14:16, and 16:7 is proof Jesus predicted another prophet who would replace him.
Checkmate !!!
Dear anonymouse no.3,
The Moussa Testimony.
One cannot depend on testimony to learn anything. There is no proof here. The Christian dogmas have been proven to contradict it self. The Bibble/gospel has no auteticity in the form of its original language. When the transmission of truth itself has no authenticity how can it ever claim to be truthful.
Testimonies is not evidence of truth.It is just an attempt to manipulate the truth.
The Moussa testimony.
Who the hell is this mousa??? he himself said he is a great sinner.How can you belief in sinners. I dont even belief in priets and Ulamas.Satan like to disguise as priest and Ulamas.
I only belief in my brains. If there in no logic in it I will straight away reject it.
JC, if u only use logics u cant figure out how this universe is created...sometimes the unlogical can be logical when there is evidence such as Quran showing us this kind of thing
And when these things are justified by todays science the thing that was unlogical thousand years ago is logical now...
Anyway, Pak Yeh, what do u mean when u said u dont beliebe in Ulamas? U really mean it?
Dear Mr Aran,
Thank you for your comments on the science in the Quran.Yes the Quran tells us the all planets revolve on its axis long before any scientist said that.
About the Ulama.
The meaning of Ulama is a wiseman. The meaning now is a person graduated from University only in religion.The University has commercialised religion.Buying and selling of the words of Allah/religion starts is the University,The lecturer sells,the student buys. After graduation the student sells and the government buys.
The Quran says no selling of religion.But Ulamas nowadays sell themself to the government.
Beside the commercialisation of Islam, these University Ulamas have changed the Quranic Islam into the Hadis religion.Satan has cleverly disguise himself as Ulama to misguide the Muslims.
Islam should be learned from parents.This is the 1st University.The 2nd way is by reading the Quran and understanding the message of God.God himself will teach us through the Quran.The3rd method is by seeking out wiseman or Sufi Sheikh from whom who you can learn a lot more.The real Ulama might be teaching you science or economics instead of religion.It is this ilham from the wiseman that we should be seeking.
Instead we seek the knowledge of Commercial Ulamas mislead by lahwal(vain) hadis. What a waste of time.
Ulama also means wiseman/scientist. Science is the ilham of Allah.
to all cristian
go to this link http://mistisfiles.blogspot.com/2009/06/pintu-rahsia-ke-taman-gethsemane.html
read,understand and think.
Salam Pak Yeh,
I think You must be so special in God's eye that you get to hear His Word from those who care about you to share His word to you in much Grace.
In the fondest memory of my truly beloved Malay uncle who married my aunt, a Chinese adopted by a Christian Indian family. Both uncle and aunt loved God by serving humanity quietly, regardless of race and faith. Their level of education never stood in their ways.
Despite facing the initial hardship more so from Uncle's extended family, they loved each other too much, complementing each other, till the end and the beginning of eternity. However, along the way, Aunt was accepted by them. Maybe she wept a lot before God, loved Uncle and likewise.
Their three grown up children have migrated abroad. The nicest intellectuals .... making positive differences quietly as well.
God is God, He is unshakeable, yet most merciful to you, to all. HE alone created all without any one. HE called Himself Father, cos we, of every race and creed are His children.
1.http://www.fathersloveletter.com//fllpreviewlarge.html( even in Arabic )
2. YOU ARE GOD ALONE, Philips, Craig and Dean ( on stage )
3. You Are God Alone-Phillips, Craig, & Dean ( scenery )
Life has its defining moments, with support and unfailing love from God ... in our solitude, in stillness as well as when we are with family members, friends, even angel strangers in time of distress, in receiving, in sharing.
Salam hormat & kasih , Pak.
Dear Anonymous,
I do believe in Jesus teachings on love etc and the old testament, which is very similar to the Quran.
But I do not and cannot believe in the Priest/Popes teachings made up of dogmas and mythology.
God has a son is the Priests/Popes teaching of dogma and mythology.Jesus never said he is Gods son.The Bible says Jesus is a son of man and not the son of God and neither did the Bible say Jesus is God. Jesus never claimed to be son of God and son of God.Acts2:22.
He dies on the cross to suffer for our sins is Priesthood teaching of dogma and mythology, which Jesus never taught.
What Jesus taught is a different religion from what the Christian Priest/Pope teaches.
Why do you not belief in Gods words (Bible)when He said I am the only God. "There is no God before me and there is no god after me".???Instead youy Christians belief in the priests version of God which is a trinity.
The Bible tells you to circumcise. Even Jesus circumcised. but you Christians refuse to follow Gods word and jesus example. God tells you not to eat pork. Yrt you christians eat pork. I dont think you Christians follow the Bible. You follow the Priest/Pope. The priest/Pope are your gods.
In fact all that God said (circumcision.not eating pork etc) in the Bible are followed by Muslims. Therefore Muslims are better Christians than Christians themselves.
Unitarian Christianity(the original one God religion)is Islam, thathad been corrupted by the Priuests/pope.
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