Friday, October 25, 2013

A Debate with Christians : The Arab/Malay Bible Mistranslaion using Allah.

I dont know why Ulamas cannot debate with Christians.???
I suspect they are afraid of loosing in a debate. Pehaps the Universities, they attend never taught the use of their mind. Perhaps they are taught to follow blindly what their teachers say.. Perhaps, this hadis made them stupid... Reported by Jundub "The prophet Mohamad said that whoever use their mind to interpret the Quran should be prepared to go to hell fire".
This is one reason why Arab Muslim  and non Arab Ulamas never want to debate because debating is the use of the mind.

This debate is based on the Christian point of view on why they mistranslated "god", a noun to "Allah", a proper noun/name, explained by  Dr D Soesilo.
Please refer to the full article @...
http://www.malaysia-today.net/archives/archives-2010/29421-allah-cant-be-substituted-with-tuhan-in-bible-translation



The Debate

1) The Christian said:
I would have thought that any Malay would know that the meaning of the words Allah (God) and Tuhan (Lord, Rabb) are not the same.

1) Pak Yeh's refutation:
You will be suprised that the Malays, know more of the Arab language than the Arab. Ha,ha,

Allah actually means "Al" + "illah" .
"Al" means "the" and "illah" means "god".  When joined together Allah is a name of the Muslim god as proven by the Quran.
Proof of this is in the sentence "La illa ha illallah" in the Quran and much recited by all Muslims, which means "No god(illah) but Allah".

So your statement that Allah is god is wrong.!!! Allah means "the god" which is a name of god.
 Your statement that "tuhan" means  Lord or Rabb is also wrong, because....
"tuhan" is a noun meaning "god"
"Lord" is a name of "god" or "tuhan"
You cannot substitue a noun 'god" with a name Lord or Rabb.!!!
Rabb  or Lord means "Tuanku" in Malay. 
So the right word for "Rabb" or "Lord" is "Tuanku" and not "Allah".!!!

2) The Christian said:
How can they suggest that Christians simply use the word Tuhan to substitute the word Allah? To express the issue linguistically, Allah and Tuhan have different senses even though they have the same reference.
Both the terms Allah and Tuhan are used in the Malay Bible.

2) Pak Yeh's reply:
Read my no.1) refutation above and you will realize that what you say does not make sense.!!!

 3) The Christian said:
Following the precedent set by Arab Christians, Allah is used to translate el/elohim and Tuhan (or TUHAN in caps) is used to translate Yahweh (YHWH). The two words are sometimes paired together as Yahweh-Elohim in 372 places in the Old Testament (14 times in Genesis 2-3; 4 times in Exodus; 8 times in Joshua; 7 times in 2 Samuel; 22 times in Chronicles; 12 times in Psalms; 32 times in Isaiah; 16 times in Jeremiah and 210 times in Ezekiel, etc.).

3) Pak Yeh's refutation:
Ha,ha.!"tuhan" in caps(capital letters) !!! That verily is a lie.!!!
There is no capital letters for a noun. !!!
Capital letters are only for names.!!!
Besides, there is no capital letters in Hebrew,Arab.Malay,English for the noun "tuhan".!!!
 (Note: Capital G isu is the mistranslation of "La illa ha illAllah"  into "There is no god but God.")

Got you Christians.!!! You are a bunch of liars.!!!

 4) The Christian said:
More importantly, the word Tuhan is also applied to Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Thus we read of the LORD Jesus as Tuhan Yesus (The word LORD was used to translate the word kurios 8,400 times in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It refers to human beings in only 400 times and refers to God 8,000 times. Of these 8,000 times, 6,700 are substitute for the word YHWH). The transference of the title kurios LORD/YHWH to Jesus Christ is testimony to the belief in the deity of Christ right at the beginning of Christianity.
This simple statistical survey shows clearly that the demand by Muslim demonstrators that Christians simply substitute the word Allah with Tuhan is unreasonable since it renders many Biblical references to God and Jesus Christ incoherent.

 4)Pak Yeh's reply:
All that statistics and statement does not give you the right to mistranslaye "god" a noun to "Allah" a name.!!!

5) The Christian said:
First, the substitution is incorrect since the meaning of Allah and Tuhan are different.

5) Pak Yeh's reply:
 Agreed. "Allah" is a name and "tuhan" is a noun. You cannot trnslate a noun "tuhan" for a name "Allah".!!!

6) The Christian said:
Second, it creates an absurd situation when Christians try to translate the paired words Tuhan Allah (LORD God). Are Christians now required to call the LORD God, Tuhan Tuhan? This sounds like committing linguistic redundancy. Worse still, the repeated words Tuhan Tuhan come across to Malay readers as suggesting that Christians believe in a plurality of Lords/Gods (since the plural form in Malay is expressed by repeating the noun and setting them in apposition).

 6) Pak Yeh's reply:
You got that absurd situation "Tuhan,tuhan" sentence because you mistranslated Lord to Tuhan.
As said before, "tuhan" is a noun, as such it cannot replace with "Lord" a name.
The right translation is "Tuanku"  tuhan ku" or the Arab word "Rabbi tuhan ku".
Substituting "Lord" for Allah is wrong as Allah means "The God" and not "Lord"
It looks like you mistranslated your Gospel in Arab and in Malay. Ha,ha,ha.
What a foolish blunder in Arab and Malay translations.!!!

7) The Christian said:
Finally, Christians are unable to express the Lordship of Jesus Christ as one who is distinct from the Father and yet shares with the God of the Old Testament, the name that is above every other name — kurios/Tuhan (Philippians 2:9, cf. Isaiah 45:23). In other words, Christians are rendered unable to affirm the deity of Jesus Christ and teach the doctrine of Trinity without the foundational words that maintain the semantic relationship between the words Allah and Tuhan as they are applied distinctively in the Malay Bible.

7) Pak Yeh's reply :
Of course, that statement is correct. You cannot proof the deity of Jesus even if you use Yaweh the Bible god instead of Allah That is because Yaweh said he is a "One God" and not a "trinity god".Refer Isaiah 43:10,11,12 "I am the only god.There is no god before me an there is no god after me.And there is no Savior except me."
The Old Tesrtament verse proves that the Bible god is not a trinity.!!! As such Jesus is not a god/deity.!!!Only the New Testament/Gospels,which is the word of  man/priest  and not the word of god says tthat Jesus is god, and contradicting Yaweh the Bible god.!!!.
Even with your own original Bible god's name, you cannot prove Jesus' diety, how then can you prove Jesus' dirty with the use of Allah,???
 This task is even more impossibly when Allah says in Quran 5:72,73
 "They surely disbelieve (kafir) who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers
 They surely disbelieve (kafir) who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve." 


Maybe Christian would want to debate with me at the comments column.???
Let's debate intelligently to make things clearer. and more understandable.!!!
Let us then choose the version of truth of the winner of this debate.!!!
Christians must stop using Allah if you lose this debate.!!!
 

33 comments:

Matrojak said...

Tidak membawa apa2 makna pakyeh debat statement Kristian tuh, kenapa tidak cuba berdebat dengan statemen mamat nih?? lihat nih, http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/mcmc-grills-bfm-producer-duo-over-reza-aslan-interview

pak yeh said...

Tidak mermaan.??? Umtok yang tak ada otak mavcam kamu tak bermaana lah.!!!

Bukan kah rencana ini debate namanya.
Say sedang tunggu counter hujah dari Christian.

Reza Azlan cuma bagi opinion sahaja. tidak ada intelectual dalam hujah dia.
Dr MAZA punb tidak intewrlectual kerana tidak detail meberi hujah dari segi salah terjemah dari Bible original. dan dari segi sejarah Bible. Bukti yang dia beri adalah general reference of god to the Arabs in general and not to Christians in particular.
Tak kan Allah nak sebut Deus bila bercerita dengan Christian Arab. haqiqarnya Deus perkataan bahasa Latin di guna dalam upacara agama Christian dan bukan Arab.

Anonymous said...

.



.


.

Saya perhati khalid samad ada

tepek cerita pasal Aslan sebagai

Islamic scholar ... dan saya ada

beri nasihat kepadanya untuk google

latar belakang Aslan yang sebenarnya

adalah pendakwah kristen semasa sekolahnya

dan dia sendiri telah menjadikan emaknya

se orang kristen. Walaupun Aslan dan emaknya

berasal Islam , dia telah memeluk kristen

sejak dibangku sekolah dan telah melalui

christian evangelical camp semasa zaman

remajanya. Emaknya yang ketika itu Islam

telah dipujuknya untuk jadi kristian tegar.

Ayahnya adalah seorang atheis. Proses kemasukannya

Aslan menjadi Islam adalah diragui kerana ianya

seperti yang dia jelaskan -'satu intellectual

conversion' .Allah saja yang tahu maknanya.


latar belakannya sebagai 'islamic scholar' adalah

diragui . Sila teliti apa yang anda bolih googlekan.


Saya suspek geng evangelista katolik telah bawa Aslan

ke malaysia untuk gelakkan dan jatuhkan imej orang

islam malaysia yang mahukan kalimah Allah untuk orang

Islam. Setelah saya beritahu Khalid samad di dalam blognya

[tapi dia tak keluarkan dan tak respon] saya confident khalid

ini adalah bebal dan pemalas untuk kaji kebenaran dan satu

lagi 'Mat Pantat' yang jadi champion untuk katolik selain

dari mat asri dan aziz bari yang bahlul tuh! Bayangkan si aziz bari

bolih cakap - Malaysia akan malu kerana mahukan kalimah Allah

untuk orang Islam. tapi sebagai loyar chabok di dalam

Malaysian Bar dia tak malu yang si Pundek Lingam masih

di dalam register Bar Council!

.

.


kkk


.


.

.

pak yeh said...

Salam Anonymous kkk,

Nyata Islamic scholarship macam Reza Azlan dan Dr MAZA boleh di beli oleh Kristian.!!!
Khalid Samad pun jadi defender of Christians.???Itu semua bodoh punya Muslim daa.!!!.
Kalau mereka pandai,mereka patut debate "Allah is not integral to Christian faith" judgnent Hakim tu.
Dari stastistic sahaja mereka akan kalah. 99% Christian tidak guna Allah. Cuma 1% Christian sesat sahaja yang guna Allah. Maananya "Allah is not integral to Christians faith".
Kah,kah,kah,kah.
Banyak Melayu Muslim yang bodoh jadi MP.

Matrojak said...

Agaknya disebabkan ramai orang mengaku Islam punya amalan agama sama macam dlm bible itu mungkin menyebabkan para penganut Kristian di Malaysia nak guna istilah Allah?? Cuba lihat disini (klik)

Anonymous said...

Terima kaseh Matrojak.
Memang Old Testament Bible itu adalah wahyu tuha. Menguna Allah di dalam Bible old testament tidak salah kerana tuhan yang satu di kekalkan.
Tapi mengguna Allah di Bible Gospel adalah haram,kerana 1) Gospel adalah hadis manusia (kata2 padri)
2) tuhan yang satu di korupsi dengan tuhan yang tiga dan anak tuhan.

Sikh pun boleh guna allah jika tuhan mereka "tuhan yang satu".

Isu yang sebenarnya bukan lah kegunaan Allah dengan baik,tetapi salah guna Allah bila di hina dengan tribity dan anak melalui buku manusia bernama Gospel.

tebing tinggi said...


Good effort Pak Yeah ,but I think the christians would not bother about the truth ,they do know what is truth ,what they more interested is to confused the Muslim as they are being confused .

What more interesting to see that some of our so called ULAMAK are as confused as they are .

pak yeh said...

Salam tebing tinggi,
You are right. The Christians are
"dogs of kufur/falsehood"
They only can smell and eat shit(faksehood).They cannot smell fowers and perfumes of truth. That is why allah say they are kafirs and will be doomed for hell fire.

As for our Ulamas, it is the kafir/secular education that recruits the stupid students who fail their Maths and science, to be Ulamas. So can we respect these Ulamas.???
I have given up on Ulamas. My Ulama is Lebai Google where all truths are debated. So I think Ulamas will be irrelevant soon.Ha.ha.ha.
I hope PAS Ulamas will remove their stupid "Pimpionan Ulama" Hindu caste system.!!! Ha,ha,ha.

Anonymous said...

R u VERY sure that Allah is the name of Muslim GOD?

If yr version of the Islam STATED so then aint u commit syirik & blasphemy in the eyes of the other muslims (ie Reza Aslan)whose Islam GOD has no name BUT 99 titles?

If now u revert & claim Allah is the tiltle of yr god then WHY goes into semantic about a non-issue?

U could be very good at Arabic, better than the Arab, BUT u definitely DONT know how a living language works.

Perhaps, role learning - read & memorise, is the key to yr way of understanding.

Then u r READY one deviationist that Islam dont NEED!

Anonymous said...

Pak yeh...i think enough is enough...do you have a mirror to see the reflection of your own soul? If your Allah is so great and all knowing he could have prevented Christianity from coming to the world and created only holy people like pak yeh in this world to together with muhammad ?

pak yeh said...

Anonumous said:
If yr version of the Islam STATED so then aint u commit syirik & blasphemy in the eyes of the other muslims (ie Reza Aslan)whose Islam GOD has no name BUT 99 titles?

Pak Yeh's reply:
Reza Azlan was a Muslim who converted to Christian, but still claim to be Muslim..ie hypocrite Muslim.Read more @
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/03/reza-aslan-zealot-criticism_n_3697318.html

pak yeh said...

Anonymous said:
If your Allah is so great and all knowing he could have prevented Christianity from coming to the world and created only holy people like pak yeh in this world to together with muhammad ?

Pak Yeh's reply:
Mr Anonymous, you dont understand Allah's plans.
The plan A, was to have the prophets teach the truth to mankind and bring them to heaven..
The plan B,was also to allow Lucifer/Satan to, mislead and bring manking to hell.
That is why Allah created the heaven and the hell.

Christiuans mistranslating their own Bible (mistranslatin is Satan's job to mislead mankind) would bring them to hell

Comprende/ Understand,???

Anonymous said...

I never expected that you would claim to understand what is in the mind of the one true God Almighty. Wow! That is blasphemy ! Why not your Allah just create only good people like you and a heaven ? If your Allah is great he could have done this...right or not ? If he could predetermine the outcome of all his creation, then what is the point of having them created ? What is the point of you setting up a business if you knew right from day one that your business was going to fail?

Anonymous said...

Why must your Allah allow his plan A & B to take place when in fact he could have prevented both of plan A & B from taking place? Think hard pak yeh and be humble if you can :)

pak yeh said...

Mr Anonymous,
You are like a glass full of water. Why don't you make yourself at least a glass that is 1/2 full.? Then you can accept some more information.

Have you read the Quran or religious books other than the Bible.???
If you haven't, then your mind is undeveloped and will be biased.
An undeveloped and biased mind can never be a judge of truth.
The Quran will answer all your Read it please, the perhaps you can free youself from Greek mythologyu and fantasy of the Bible.

pak yeh said...

Mr Anonymous,
Why all the Questions about my Allah.? Because your Allah is a mistranslation god is it.???.
The real Allah is in the book that has no mistranslations and no contradictions,ie the Quran. Go read the Quran the true book of Allah.

The Gospels are man's/priests words that contradict the One God by making Him a third of three Gods..
Your Bible god Yaweh himself said that there is no other god other than himself.. refer Isaiah 43:10,11,12.
So the trinity is a lie by your priests.
Christians lie about Yaweh the Bible god. Now the Christians want to lie about Allah the Muslim god. that is mischief.
Why you like to create trouble and mischief hah.???
You Christians lie all you life to hell.

Anonymous said...

The quran ? Oh plz...i just want to be honest with you pak yeah...my clear conscience is telling me not be deceived by it. Reading it, of course no problem at all. But why should i want to read it, if i have suspected that it was from satan. Of course, there are some good things writen in the quran but those are just the game played by satan. You cannot even prove that wasl the angel Gabriel sent by God. You are right when you said, Allah is exclusively for muslim...because Allah is the name for the solid rock of kaabah. Christian should not use it, although when in fact they use it to refer their one true loving God, the creator of the universe.

Anonymous said...

Pak yeh, again my question is simple, can your allah prevent christianity from coming into the world or not ? Just answer 'yes or no'.. That's all !

Anonymous said...

Why must u resolved to ad homenin argument on Reds Aslan?

The main issue here is - is Allah a name or a title of Muslim God?

If it's the name of the God, then in the true teaching of Quran, the claimant has make blasphemous statement & commit syirik against the teaching of Islam.

If it's only a title, then why run emotional diarrhoea over a semantic term?

BTW, do bear in mind even Prophet Mohd had used friendly terms to address fellow Christians during the wars. Yr hostility only shows yr shallowness in the understanding of Islam. No?

Anonymous said...

I am not representing the christians or Christianity...haha ! Gotcha ! I can see now u hate christians so much especially from the way u replied me and others. Christianity has nothing do with Islam. Because Christianity came first, and the devil created Islam thru iliterate muhammad more or less 600 hundred years later. So the question is who is copying who? Who is the copycat ? The christians had all the firsthand knowledge of all the prophets and and the envious muhammad plagiarised and created his own version religion. Islam is actually cult sect of christianity. Muhammad did attend church where his rich wife khadijah had been attending. A little bit of Jewish teaching, Christinity and paganism that is Islam :)

pak yeh said...

Mr Anonymous all 4 above,,
Whatever negativity you say about Islam and prophet Mohamad cannot be proven. Its all meer ignorant opinion by your stupid selves.

But Christian deceit and mistranslations to make their One God Yaweh and now Allah into a trinity and with a son can be easily proven using the Bible, the Quran, logic and language/grammar.

Care to comment on my next article..
proof that Christians mistranslated all their Bibles in all languages, from the originals in Hebrew and Aramaic.
Ha,ha,ha.
Dont talk about Islam when you religion as proven to be a fake religion.
Ha,ha,ha.

Anonymous said...

Tell you what pak yeh2 :), i couldn't be bothered whether the bible proven to be corrupted or not but as far as i am concerned i am comfortable with. If you claim it as a manmade or written by human, still i would love to say it is from God, since God created man, and the bible had been written by the man, and the man from God. So is satan also from God who passed down all the satanic verses to muhammad. Logically it is better to choose something written by human than satan :) right or not ?

Anonymous said...

I am not only questioning the doctrine of islam but i am debating against the christians too. I am not an atheist either. But if i was to choose which faith that i must avoid first, surely Islam is among top in my list :) Think about this first...you might be able to provide all the evidence to support that the quran has no corruptions, contradictions or variants in it but so far NONE OF YOU could provide me the evidence to support the real identity of the creature who communicated with muhammad in the cave. Until now..my suspicion remains the same, the creature was the devil. You should renounce Islam if you canont prove it before it is too late. It is blind faith ! The teaching found in the quran also further improve my suspicion !

pak yeh said...

Mr Anonymous,
Where is your proof that Quran is satanic verses.If there is no proof the automatically you are saying satanic verses and satan himself.. This is a debate,not childish accusations at kindergartens. Please debate with proofs from Quran,Bible ,logic or historical facts.
Dont waste others time with your silly kids stuff opinions.
Better for me to delete them.

Anonymous said...

I just want you to provide evidence to support your claim that it was indeed the angel Gabriel who talked to muhammad in the cave not satan ! Don't run away from this question by saying this and that like a retarded child :)

Anonymous said...

It is not an accussation but just my suspicion..and you said you knew everything about the quran but when one starts questioning about it, u seem to be frowning on it. It is very basic question indeed. You have a perfect quran in your hand, then the book should make you a perfect person...and be patient enough to answer even a silly question, am i right ? Opps ! But what is going on ? What it has caused you now?

Anonymous said...

Pak Yeh, there is no point to debate about all the historical facts or anything between islam and Christianity when you are unable to answer even basic and simple questions or provide evidence for any of your claims. Stop mumbling and please answer my question in relation to the identity of the creature who talked to muhammad in the cave. Plz do not answer by quoting the quran because the origin of the book itself is the one in question.

Anonymous said...

Provide us the evidence to support the Islam claim over the real identity of the creature who talked to Muhammad in the cave. Bear in mind that Satan was created by God long before mankind came into this world. So for Satan to make up a book such as quran is nothing...as Satan is definitely equipped with all the knowledge of heaven and hell. If it was indeed the angel Gabriel, then furnish your claim with reliable evidence without you quoting anything from the quran to support your claim :)

pak yeh said...

Mr Anonymous,
Proving the existence of Angels is not possible in the way that modern science requires. Experience is the only proof of Angels and god. So unless you seek god and the unseen angels in prayer, you will not see it.
I understand that Atheist do not accept anything that they cannot seen or proven.The life within you too cannot be seen or proven, but does it mean it does not exist.Your life is a spirit too.Your spirit can be influenced by good spirits named gabriel or some other name. Your spirit can olso be influenced another spirit named Satan. So even if you cannot see spirits/angels the do exist like your life itself.
So who gives you your life if it is not god.??? Satan.??? You yourself.???
I am sure your answer is god.!!!
Anything good comes from god, anything bad comes from bad human influenced satan the anti religion.
The Quran a satanic verses.???
Only Satan would say that. You said you have not read it,how then would you know it is satanic. Ha,ha,ha. i am debating with a idiot who does not want to read.



Anonymous said...

Pak Yeh2, you should be laughing at yoir own answers as a matter of fact :), try to read your answer again n again. Childish, brainless and lazy. So in other words, the real identity of the creature who talked to muhammad remains a mystery for muslim. You live in denial. You said good things come from God. But the creature who talked to muhammad was unable to tell that muhammad did not know how to read. Worse..the creature tried to strangle muhammad...and does that come from God?

pak yeh said...

Gabriel strangle Mohamad.???
How can a spirit do that to a semi solid. Not very bright in school are you.???
Where did you get this blasphemy.??? From Christians.??? The lies you say is proof that you are a Christian.
Ha,ha.ha.
Why dont you go and tell more lies to defend your Bible mistranslations on my next article.
Ha,ha,ha.

harris said...

Many followers of the scripture would rather see you revert to disbelief, now that you have believed. This is due to jealousy on their part, after the truth has become evident to them. You shall pardon them, and leave them alone, until God issues His judgment. God is Omnipotent. (2:109)

Anonymous said...

The problem for Christians is that they translate ho theos/ton theon equivalent to generic nouns of (the god) or Al-ilah in Arabic to that of the word Allah.

For those who try to look into the etymology of the word Allah will relate it to root ilah with tittle Al- (the) in front. However, when doing comparison of word Allah with generic nouns like ilah or al-ilah , one will find it is no longer equal to those two words. For example we have titles of God like Al-awal, Al-akhir, when one wish to invoke either one as name, one drops the word Al-, by saying O Awal, or O Akhir. The same cant be applied when doing supplication towards Allah, as one will say O Allah. Not O Ilah, O Lah, nor does can one imply that such invocation is due to existence of title Al-allah. The reason is that Allah is proper/unique noun.